2. Ruination: DePOT Keyword Workshop - Shared screen with speaker view
Romain Castellesi
Hi Jackie !
steven high
Fantastic presentation Alice!
Hilary Orange
Could I have the reference for Eve Tuck's work please?
steven high
Eve Tuck, “Suspending Damage: A Letter to Communities” Harvard Educational Review 79, 3 (2009). .
Hilary Orange
Thanks Steven!
lisa taylor
Thank you Fred - I really enjoyed your paper. Are any of the idea you've talked about today published anywhere?
Fred Burrill
Thanks! Yes, a great text is J. Sakai's "The Dangerous Class": https://www.akpress.org/catalog/product/view/id/3315/s/the-dangerous-class-and-revolutionary-theory/
Alice Mah
Hi everyone, thanks for the great talks! Please post questions to speakers in the chat or else raise your raise to ask your question directly.
Lauren Laframboise
Just a reminder for folks who are looking to raise their hands to speak — please do this in the “participants” window! One of the disadvantages of such a good turnout is that we can’t see everyone on the same screen at the same time!
Lachlan MacKinnon
Thanks Fred!
Ben Glasgow undergrad
I have a question for Arthur McIvor - what is your opinion on the ‘rejuvenation’ (?) of spaces in Glasgow affected by deindustrialisation, and the move towards the service industry, tech companies, call centres, retail etc as the main economies for the Strathclyde region(e.g. the Barclays campus in Tradeston, the redevelopment of Sighthill with attempts to undo the damage of pollution from chemical works, the housing scheme planned for the former Ravenscraig site). Do you think these plans / industries do justice to the ruination / damage done to the communities? Thanks
Ben Glasgow undergrad
Also for Fred Burril - do you think big infrastructure projects will have a positive impact on Griffintown / Saint Henri ? (e.g. the new Turcot Interchange and park, the REM through Bassin Peel and Ile des Soeurs)
Gabor Scheiring
I also have a question to Arthur (and Steven maybe) about Case & Deaton's Death of Despair book.
There has been interesting work done by Tracy Shildrick and Robert MacDonald about generations of worklessness, precarity and the impacts of deindustrialisation on Teesside/ North East England. https://pure.hud.ac.uk/en/persons/robert-macdonald
Rebecca Dolgoy
Thanks for the wonderful presentations! Question for Alice and Steven - what kind of language should we be contemplating (beyond damage)? I imagine that part of this project is finding that language.
Also Tracy Shildrick https://www.ncl.ac.uk/gps/staff/profile/tracyshildrick.html#research
Fred: I’d love to hear you speak a bit more if possible about how race and racialization figures in the way you’re describing the “post-working class lumpenized populations” whether in the SouthWest specifically or at broader scales. Obviously this is where my mind went right away when you mentioned the US election, but more generally I’m thinking about critiques of the working class, as such, as rooted in white supremacy. So i guess I’m asking: to the extent that racialized people have often been excluded from what’s studied as “the working class,” where do those folks fit into the picture of classdecomposition you’re describing?
Jelica Jovanovic
Gabor, could you type down the title of the book, please, I could not hear the first part of your comment?
Gabor Scheiring
Deaths of Despair and the Future of Capitalism, by Anne Case and her Nobel-laurate husband, Angus Deaton. It's about the declining life exptentancy of working-class Americans, which they link to deindustrialization. FYI, I wrote a review summarizing the book and some of the limitations https://progressivepost.eu/inspiration/the-slow-extinction-of-the-american-working-class
Gabor Scheiring
Jelica Jovanovic
thank you!
Hilary Orange
I'm interested in where the money/capital goes within the processes of deindustrialisation - thinking of economic 'tectonic plates' and the ground shifting (bear with me with this metaphor, industrial sinkholes, landslides, earthquakes and slow erosion). Do any of the speakers have examples of 'following the money' please?
David Amos
Interesting talk by Olaf about the decline of steel in Germany. A similar story happen at the Stanton Ironworks, Derbyshire in the 1970's. 8,000 worked on the site in the early 1970's with the last 300 jobs going in 2007. At that time a French Company St Gobain owned the Company. An excellent local publication entitled 'Stanton: Gone but not Forgotten - A Derbyshire Ironworks and its people' was written by former workers Steve Flinders and Danny Corns and published by Ilkeston & District Local History Society in 2013.
Jackie Clarke
I have a couple of questions. Firstly, can we speak of ruination beyond the industrial heartlands? It seems very tied up with place. What does ruination look like beyond the heartlands? Secondly, I'd be interested in hearing speakers say a bit more about how ruination is gendered if they have anything to add.
steven high
I have a question for Rebecca and Olaf. In curating ruins (material culture or the ruined plant itself), how do you avoid some of the political concern about 'ruin porn' - or the deindustrial sublime - where people consume feelings of other people's loss. The other thing I am thinking about is how we can think of ruination not only as disinvestment but as a certain kind of re-investment that displaces poor people. Here I am thinking of gentrification.
Q to all , how does ruination manifest itself amongst what were the Industrial middle class. The professionals, engineers metalurgists, production managersetc etc...…..
keith gildart
Middle class activism around preservation of post-industrial sites is an interesting aspect in UK context. In some places it has reflected tensions in terms of curation and presentation.
Christoffer Holm
Hello. Christoffer Holm from Åbo AkademiUniversity in Finland. I am doing my PhD on a small steel mill laid down in the south of Finland in 2012.I wonder what the presenters think about howmuch the industrial space itself affect theconsequences of a factory closure?Especially how former workers react to preservationversus demolition of abandoned industrial spaces?At least Olaf touched upon this.Thank you all for anotherreally interesting workshop!
steven high
Very interesting - thanks Olaf. There is a political tension between the aesthetics and the lived realities. I think working with workers is very key - great work.
Hilary Orange
To follow my point (but no need to return to my question as I don't want to hog). Several large organisations are going through processes of 'reckoning' in the UK (such as the National Trust, various universities) in acknowledging their histories of slavery, colonisation etc. I wonder if the same kind of corporate reckoning will ever emerge re 'BIG' business and deindustrialisation. I doubt it, as I don't think that deindustrialisation is seen in the same way as climate change, slavery or colonisation. But, companies do occasionally come under scrutiny, e.g. British Museum's relationship with BP sponsorship has certainly been highlighted in recent years.
Busra Sati
My question is for Steven, You talked about how social spaces like restaurants, taverns and barber shops got closed during the process of deindustrialization. So now the former working-classes don't produce together and also they don't consume together. So my question is: In the framework of deindustrialization what makes them a class or a "community"? Is it just the memory of industrial work?   
Hilary Orange
And thank you for responding to my question so eloquently
steven high
Great point Rebecca about time. Here in Montreal, Parks Canada ends interpretation of the industrial Lachine Canal at 1945 therefore effectively depoliticizing it.
@JONWARREN In my experience, that varies. And indeed defining the industrial middle class is difficult with many managers drawn from the coal face or shop floor.
Thanks for your responses Alice and Steven
And Olaf , great point on product rather than work
Many of the examples discussed today are port cities. How does that status -- being a port city -- shape dynamics of ruination?
Magdalena Novoa
I'm curious to know how the presenters see the differences between female and male experiences of ruination, especially concerning their different roles/occupations in industrial communities. I'm thinking in cases where women's work was mostly in their households and how ruination plays into changing gender dynamics in the present.
David Amos
My experience is there are mixed emotions about the preservation of former industrial sites. Clipstone Colliery headstocks in Nottinghamshire are a good example. The pit closed in 2003 but the headstocks remain. A few see the need to preserve the headstocks, the highest in Europe, and adapt them for a new use. Others want to see them demolished in order for the region to be able to try and move on. In the end Health and Safety concerns will probably win the day and at sometime in the future they will be deemed unsafe.
Fascinating. Thank you very much for the response.
David Amos
Apologies for having to keep leaving the meeting. We are having a Combi Boiler breakdown repaired!
keith gildart
Enjoyed the session. See you all soon!
Christoffer Holm
Thank you for the example David Amos! My case study has shown similar reactions. It also depends a lot on age, gender, for how long the worker had worked at the site, if the lost their job when the factory was laid down and so forth. Quite obvious, but still worth analyzing.
Lauren Laframboise
Thanks everyone for joining us today! Here are some links to our next workshops, and ways to stay in touch!
Lauren Laframboise
Next roundtable: Brownfield, December 11, 10h00-12h00 EST https://bit.ly/2RqUKGMRegister for the other roundtables in the series here: https://bit.ly/32HMxEzFollow us on twitter: https://twitter.com/deindustrialpolSign up for our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/g9awm1
Magdalena Novoa
Thank you so much for your answers!
Magdalena Novoa
And once again a thought provoking conversation.
steven high
The next workshop will get at stigmatization, especially race and class.
Thanks to everyone for the talks, great stuff!
Thank you all!
Sinead Burns
Thank you all for a great discussion!
Naomi Petropoulos
Thanks everyone for this fascinating session!
Eliot Perrin
Great discussion, thanks everyone!
Busra Sati
thank you
Stefan Backius
Mark McIntyre
thank you for the wonderful talk